Curse

Vermilion Okeanos · Aug 19, 2005, 06:27 AM // 06:27

I have to say that is a pretty bad list... most of those skills can be use just fine... it is just whether u take the time to research them...

narrow down the list a bit more plz...

Soul Shaker · Aug 19, 2005, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComMan

Marksman's Wager?

+25 damage / 8 seconds = 3 dps. That's on a caster. That totally owns Melandru's Arrows +25 damage a shot and bleeding.

Also, it requires you to have a pet, which is the equivilant of a warrior skills requiring you to not have armor.

Where'd you get the +25 damage from marksman's wager from? Melandru's arrows is one of the most underused skills i've seen. Maybe it's NR, but in random, no-one spirit spams and everyone is loaded with enchantments. I myself have been absolutely slaughtered by another ranger using it on me...

Rey Lentless · Aug 19, 2005, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Sure, if what you want to do is worse sustained + spike damage, grab cleave.
While I'm here maybe someone can shed some light on why I keep seeing the over-used rationalization: "It depends on the build." It's repeated even when an objective numerical analysis is done showing the exact opposite, and I can't understand how the ignorance persists. We're doing our best to educate people here; try opening yourself up to learning about the game while you're here.
There is a clear winner in this situation. See above for the data. If some particular point is unclear to you (e.g. how the data was obtained), please feel free to ask. Stop the blythe rationalizations of bad skill choices.

If I ever see an accurate mathematical equation for this, I'll be sure to jump on your anti-cleave bandwagon. I've yet to see anything near accurate, and there are situations that would change the calculation that are simplied by 'it depends on the build'. The 5/8 thing is crap since you're not considering adrenal buffs. No calculation I've seen (and certainly none in this thread) include the strength bonus tacked on to attacks that will fire more with cleave than eviscerate, or include how it modifies a certain build's attack chain and raises the overall dps (which skills are recharged when you're using other attacks, how many normal attacks the chain allows, etc). Since we do have all of the 'depends on the build' info that is left out of these mundane equations (that people try to pawn off as conclusive evidence that cleave is indeed crap), we simply counter it with 'depends on the build' because it.. does. If you don't like that response, come up with something better than 24/5 & 42/8 because that's oversimplified crap (or objective numerical analysis to others apparently) that nobody should bother paying attention to. I hope that adequately explains why you're seeing those responses, and feel free to learn something yourself.

Melandru's is nice for the bleeding, that's all. The prep from kindle isn't blockable, adds similiar damage, and doesn't have conditional damage.

Aug 19, 2005, 09:26 AM // 09:26

The prep from kindle is not similar to MA. Test them out

Evis damage is a lot better than cleave because as said before, it spikes much, much harder. Adrenal buffs actually benefit Eviscerate better as it makes for incredibly rapid spikes of DW and +42 damage chains.

Eviscerate damage is (Weapon damage+buffs+20% of targets Max HP). Which Cleave just cant compete with even in a long term battle because it actually takes a set amount of Cleaves to clear the damage an Eviscerate spike does based on target hp.

Cleave used to be really good when it was charging itself, and everything else with rapid speed because you didnt care about the damage as it was just a bonus. Now, if you want a damage machine in Axe Mastery you take Eviscerate for the 120+ buffed criticals, and the extra 20% off of a target as it will spike very, very hard. It's pretty much the Warrior's version of Lightning spike except that it comes back a whole lot more.

Rey Lentless · Aug 19, 2005, 09:38 AM // 09:38

I wasn't suggesting they were similiar, other than that they were both preps. That bonus damage isn't that impressive on melandru's, but the bleeding can be useful.

Eviscerate's certainly better for spiking, I don't think there's any need to discuss that. I do think cleave comes out better in overall dps often times, although the value of dps vs spike is certainly debatable. Adrenal buffs would not make eviscerate better because cleave would again charge other skills if you're getting more than 1 per hit.

Aug 19, 2005, 09:57 AM // 09:57

The bonus damage on MA is actually the reason that many people were afraid of Rangers that knew what that damage could do. The only thing that stopped it was a heavy healing ball, since the only things that could break the damage easily were Prot Spirit and Seed. MA bonus is tied into the arrow damage itself and not seperate, which when combined with TF and Dual shot spam(with buffs) you hear of those 70+ DPS Rangers mowing down casters

The bonus damage is exactly what makes the skill insane, tied in with the fact that unlike other preps Shielding Hands isn't the big, bad counter here-it's Prot Spirit.

I dont think Cleave comes out in an overall DPS race because if we are counting that Deep Wound hit Eviscerate is going to destroy it incredibly easily. The value of sustained damage vs spike damage with regards to adrenaline is well debateable, but in this case it's not exactly fair since Eviscerate has spike damage won easily, and in giving up it's sustained damage vs Cleave in an adrenal race it replaces it with a DW to make the damage aspect that much more frightening.

Evis is better than Cleave with Adrenal ups, because in the simplest example if I give you 1 extra adrenaline per hit: In 2 strikes cleave charges, in 4 strikes Evis charges. W/O that boost, it's 4 strikes Cleave charges, 7 strike Evis charges. So it's a straight 1:2 vs 4:7 here. And the former ratio favors Evis better than the latter.

Rey Lentless · Aug 19, 2005, 10:11 AM // 10:11

That's not impressive. It goes through healing seed, that's it's only advantage. It's broken by protective spirit, destroyed by shield's up and guardian. Kindle isn't, it's damage is separate, so protective spirit doesn't bother it, and it's not blocked, so guardian and shield's up (or it's armor) don't bother it either. And again, you're only getting that damage in situations.. a situation you're trying to remove from them (the target having enchants).

You can only include the deep wound if no other warriors are applying it. And again, you're just excluding the rest of the bar or what other people are using. Removing those conditions is going to give you faulty data. It's not just a straight 24/5 & 43/8 equation. It's not the ratio I'm talking about, but the fact that you can continue to charge your other skills while using it. Compare the attack chain's dps, not the individual skill... that will give a more accurate dps measure. When you have buffs that allow adrenal attacks to charge each other, having more adrenaline attacks is of great benefit.. the more the better.. and this is where cleave wins.

These simple equations don't translate in game. It's nice to try to break it down, but you'd have to add more factors and give the conditions in which it's better. Just blanket statements like 'eviscerate's always better' like you guys are suggesting, isn't accurate. I imagine cleave could use a slight buff, to be better under more conditions and situations.

Calimar · Aug 19, 2005, 10:23 AM // 10:23

"Seriously though, the bad ones should never see the light of day- you probably never get past #20 on the list, unless you're looking at a niche build."

You know, I used to play "Magic: the Gathering" which has the same basic strategy as GW, except for mouse-feast. In magic, there were lots of cards that were completely useless... untill someone found a creative way to use them and won a world championship. It's not cookie cutter builds that win, it's the unexpected.

Niche builds are what we all should be looking for, me thinks!

Stormbringer · Aug 19, 2005, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Healing Hands is perfect if you have 10 in healing, and Warrior's Endurance is good for those warriors that need energy, you just need something in Stregth that's all.

Scaphism · Aug 19, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calimar

"Seriously though, the bad ones should never see the light of day- you probably never get past #20 on the list, unless you're looking at a niche build."

You know, I used to play "Magic: the Gathering" which has the same basic strategy as GW, except for mouse-feast. In magic, there were lots of cards that were completely useless... untill someone found a creative way to use them and won a world championship. It's not cookie cutter builds that win, it's the unexpected.

Niche builds are what we all should be looking for, me thinks!

I gave up magic pretty early without learning any of its complexities, but I'm familiar with the game. My understanding is that the best players play strikingly similar decks while a few "rogues" attempt to break the stranglehold of power decks with different strategies. Still, the power decks dominate, and if a rogue deck can dominate it becomes a power deck.

Still, I'm perfectly willing to admit my shortsightedness- I don't see how using Escape as your elite will help you win anything, let alone a world championship. Heck, we don't even have a world championship yet!

While your point is well taken- good strategies dominate and new strategies are developed that prey upon the dominant ones using unexpected cards(skills). That doesn't change my point though- some Elites are plain bad, and defending them as something with "hidden potential" doesn't help anyone. You wont hurt Escape's feelings by calling it a bad skill in PVP- not when it has to compete with Melandru's Arrows, Oath Shot, Barrage, and every other elite skill available to you.

Finally, I think we have to establish what the good elites are before we can start looking at the other elites for unexpected effects. My feeling is that the "hidden potential" defense muddies the waters for most people who come here to learn what the good skills are. Sure, you may eventually be proven right, but first we have to go through the process of identifying the "best" before they can be usurped by the "surprises".

Rey Lentless · Aug 21, 2005, 10:24 AM // 10:24

That's fine if the defense doesn't have actual reasons, and it's just some overly vague response that that particular person probably uses when discussing any skill.

But, you were talking about cleave. Not escape. And you were using really simple math as some sort of 'end of discussion' evidence on why eviscerate > cleave, at all times. That wasn't a good education for anyone reading this thread that accepted that as gospil.

And speaking of escape, it does suck.. but it does have it's unique attribute. A running skill that combines a 75% block. It's recharge time is severely too long, but the basis of the skill, block + speed buff, is alright and does warrant elite status. And with flag running being a prominent thing in gvg, it does have it's pvp uses, although limited. If you're wrong, and escape's feelings were actually hurt.. hopefully that appeased it some.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 21, 2005, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Melandru's Resilience is obviously useful for a primary ranger. But for a Monk/Ranger, it can be very useful. eg: Draw Conditions + Melandru's Resilience = Energy. And it's a stance, so it can't be ripped or anything. If only Martyr wasn't elite.

... But I'd probably still take Energy Drain over that combo, as it's conditional (no pun intended) and not as offensive.

Scaphism · Aug 21, 2005, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

But, you were talking about cleave. Not escape. And you were using really simple math as some sort of 'end of discussion' evidence on why eviscerate > cleave, at all times. That wasn't a good education for anyone reading this thread that accepted that as gospil.

Actually, the quote he referred to had no mention of cleave in it. It wasn't until my next post that cleave was brought up.
I'm not looking to turn this into a Cleave vs Eviscerate debate, because we already have had those on the boards. I'm not saying that Cleave is a horrible elite either- but the usefulness of eviscerate surpasses cleave in spades. I don't think the math is overly simplistic either- no one has come upwith a reason why cleave would be superior in an alternate, undiscovered strategy.
My gripe is that the "hidden potential" justification hurts more people than it helps. It's a cop-out, a way of saying you still believe X despite being unable to show why it's useful.
I'm not really worried about people who think everything written here is the absolute truth- so much crap gets written it's mind-boggling, and as a reader you have to realize that and filter the useful info from the crap. Finding a numerical analysis they can follow and refer back to isn't going to help someone who jumps on the latest bandwagon- because as you've seen people post junk with numbers it all the time.
"Hidden potential" and the unwillingness to think through the analyses written up are the same kind of lazy. If you can't be arsed to think through something yourself then you don't *know*.
I hope that makes my position clear.

neoflame · Aug 21, 2005, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

Improved Pet controls and the removal of Charm Animal's dead space will open a lot of people's eyes- at least the people paying attention.

Ehh... they've said they're going to merge Charm Animal with Comfort Animal or something?! (and improve pet controls)

Vwoss · Aug 21, 2005, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calimar

"Seriously though, the bad ones should never see the light of day- you probably never get past #20 on the list, unless you're looking at a niche build."

You know, I used to play "Magic: the Gathering" which has the same basic strategy as GW, except for mouse-feast. In magic, there were lots of cards that were completely useless... untill someone found a creative way to use them and won a world championship. It's not cookie cutter builds that win, it's the unexpected.

Niche builds are what we all should be looking for, me thinks!

Actually, in MTG, it's the modified cookie-cutter decks that win most of the time.

Anomaly · Aug 21, 2005, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Flourish is an excellent skill when used correctly. Aura of the Lich has a very useful purpose as well.

Scaphism · Aug 21, 2005, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by neoflame

Ehh... they've said they're going to merge Charm Animal with Comfort Animal or something?! (and improve pet controls)

I haven't heard anything of the sort. I meant that improving the pet AI would help pets tremendously. I don't know of any plans to do so.

Edited my earlier post to clarify.

Rey Lentless · Aug 21, 2005, 09:47 PM // 21:47

I agree that it's a cop out most of the time, where people haven't actually put any thought into it. As for a strategy where cleave is superior, I thought I pretty much explained what situation makes cleave better for dps.

If pets are significantly improved with AI, controls, comfort animal, etc... there will have to be nerfs to be skills. I still hope these happen, but pet skills are generally superior in every way to bow skills.. energy, recharge, +damage.. all better with the pet skills. Hopefully they'll do it anyway though.

Guizzy · Oct 12, 2005, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Keystone Signet's not all that bad, ESPECIALLY if you use it along with Mantra of Signets (and Inscriptions).

Imagine that combo: use your signets (except Keystone), Mantra of Signets, Keystone Signet, (Mantra of Inscriptions if you took it), us your signets, Keystone Signet, then use your signets another time.

So you just used each of your signets 3 times, and if you took Mantra of Inscriptions, it won't be long before you can do that again. With Signet of Weariness, it's -27 energy for your target and the nearby enemies. With Leech Signet, it's 3 interrupted actions (not only spells!). With Signet of Humility, it's three enemies without their Elite.

And imagine what you could do with other Monk signets!

So no, Keystone is not all that useless, but it's only good in a dedicated signet build.

stefan16 · Oct 12, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Evis damage is a lot better than cleave because as said before, it spikes much, much harder. Adrenal buffs actually benefit Eviscerate better as it makes for incredibly rapid spikes of DW and +42 damage chains.

Cleave used to be really good when it was charging itself, and everything else with rapid speed because you didnt care about the damage as it was just a bonus. Now, if you want a damage machine in Axe Mastery you take Eviscerate for the 120+ buffed criticals, and the extra 20% off of a target as it will spike very, very hard. It's pretty much the Warrior's version of Lightning spike except that it comes back a whole lot more.

Some people forget that Cleave triggers STREGHT armor penetration, so in stead of +31 damage it will do (with 10str) +40dmg vs a warrior with AL85

I just use Cleave+Dismember, dismember for spike, then cleave when deep wound is gone-->cleave (as a W/r Tigers fury ownz like this)

Mor damage then Evis, quite same spike